Question about gas

Model Specific Discussions about the Sling TSi.
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Custom Aircraft Builders
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Re: Question about gas

Post by Custom Aircraft Builders »

I have run a couple of GA airports and FBOs. Mogas is difficult for two reasons... and they are business reasons that most pilots don't consider.

First, you have to compete with every car gas station in the community. Very few people will fly into a GA airport just because it has Mogas, so it's hard to justify for that market. There is so little margin in it compared to Avgas, as soon as an FBO tries to make a buck or even just break even covering the equipment, insurance, and other costs, local pilots will begin carrying in their own fuel again.

The other reason is Mogas has an incredibly short shelf life. If you can't sell it in time and it goes bad, the FBO is really stuck. An FBO has to have a large enough market to keep it moving and most don't.

Trust me, if there was money in it, FBOs would do it. Mogas just has a difficult business model.

The demand from more and more Rotax engines flying will help, but I think the long term solution will be something more like Swift fuel. Then it can be used by both legacy GA engines and it is the best fuel for the Rotax, even better than Mogas.

One other point for ibgarrett, 100LL has very high quality control. It is much cleaner than Mogas which has very low quality control. What you are seeing that you may be calling "dirty" on the oil screen in the reservoir is the lead. But if you were to look at the fuel filter, the 100LL filter would be much cleaner.
Doug Goodrich
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PilotMelch
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Re: Question about gas

Post by PilotMelch »

I would like to rebut those ideas about MOGAS, or at least some of them.

First off, MOGAS on the airfied, for planes that fly-in, does not compete with gas stations. Perhaps this is a point for local planes only, but from someone who flies a lot of cross country behind a Rotax engine, I can speak from experience that I have no good way to get 20 gals of 91+ AKI from the local gas station at some airport I just landed at for fuel. Nor do I want to spend time doing that. There're also issues with transportation, knowing that there is a local gas station that sells 91+ AKI (preferably without alcohol), and then there's what to haul it in. I don't have room for one stinky 5-gal plastic tank in my plane, much less 4 of them, and I don't think making 4 runs is very time efficient. When I fly cross country I seek out airports with MOGAS on the field, even if the price is comparable to 100LL

And most FBO will tell you the vast majority of fuel they sell is to transient aircraft.

Second, MOGAS, real MOGAS, does not have alcohol in it and thus its actual shelf-life is excellent. It's the alcohol in auto-fuel that makes for the short shelf-life. One reason airport managers think the shelf-life is short is because they don't sell enough of it to turn over the tanks. I would suggest that is more of a marketing screw-up than a problem with the market. We almost expect nearly all public airports to carry 100LL, because they almost all do. The question is more of at what price. So marketing 100LL is a simple matter of being published on the chart. Many are unwilling or not capable of thinking about what it takes to market MOGAS so it is profitable, either directly or indirectly.

By the way, http://flyunleaded.com/mapusairports.html is going through a major overhaul right now. It promises to have more locations published and provide more helpful information, even to pilots inflight with no Internet connection.

Notwithstanding, there are a few airport managers/FBO's that have figured out how to carry MOGAS and make money on it. They market locally and through all the Internet resources. They attract the LSA's and other Rotax flyers as well as many of the auto-conversions and low-compression Lycomings with STCs, and as such become regular stops for these types of planes. So, TRUST ME, the issues are able to be overcome if the FBO managers would think about it differently than how they think (or barely have to think) about 100LL.

There are other issues and other benefits you didn't raise, but I'm afraid I don't agree on the two bigger points you offered.
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ibgarrett
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Re: Question about gas

Post by ibgarrett »

I would have to agree with PilotMelch regarding his rebuttal. I was very confused by the Custom Aircraft Builders (CAB) comment about how the Mogas at the airport was competing with the gas stations.

In reading CAB's comments I was very perplexed by the misinformation about Mogas. You might want to take a read of this post from 10 years ago by Kent Misegades https://generalaviationnews.com/2011/0 ... gas-myths/. If you're not familiar with Kent, you should be. He's extremely knowledgeable about gas systems and has had some booths at Oshkosh. I've had some very lengthy discussions with him online from many years ago and I would consider him an authority on the subject.

With regards to the incredibly shelf life - according to JD Power, the shelf life of regular gasoline is 3 to 6 months. https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-g ... t-goes-bad According to Kents article - it's the ethanol that is added to the fuel which reduces the shelf life. This is one of the reasons I would love to see more Mogas (ethanol free naturally) at more airports. We can't use it if it's not there, but if it's not there we will use 100LL. So any FBO has no incentive for providing another avenue even though with more newer engines coming online in experimental aircraft it would benefit the overall aviation community and help with the move to a non-100LL fuel system.

I am with PilotMelch that I'm not likely to sherpa 40 gallons of gas from a local gas station to the airport if I'm away from my home base. But I am when at home. I have a truck with the ability to move this gas around, so it's not a huge deal.

As for the airports not having a good margin on gas prices. Mogas is traditionally less expensive than 100LL because (my understanding) it's a basically derivative of the gas sold for cars, but without the ethanol. Mogas is typically a few bucks per gallon less than 100LL. If FBO's were really desperate for making some money, they could sell Mogas for, say $0.50 less than 100LL and I'd still buy it. I'd be happier running Mogas over 100LL if anything to help with the environment. I have fewer oil changes even.

I'm probably more of a "Field of Dreams" kinda guy in that if someone builds it - they will come. But if it's not built, it's impossible to use it.
Brian Garrett
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hpmicrowave
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CA pushing to Kill 100LL

Post by hpmicrowave »

Watch this story, unleaded avgas is coming sooner than we might think.

And we’re flying the right plane to welcome it in.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/busine ... e-n1264970
Cecil Jones
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Mrmaint
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Re: Question about gas

Post by Mrmaint »

I just saw a video on youtube from one of the rotax mechanic/manufacturer channels that stated there is only one LL factory and was located in Great Britton. That plant is scheduled for shut down at sometime due mainly to environmental groups. If this is true wouldn't the FBO's be forced to switch to mogas or e free 90 something octane gasoline.
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Re: Question about gas

Post by hpmicrowave »

Yes. There is only one manufacture of tetra Ethel lead and they are in UK. I haven’t heard what their future is but when they go that’s it for leaded aviation gas.

Cecil
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Re: CA pushing to Kill 100LL

Post by Skepilot »

hpmicrowave wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:41 am Watch this story, unleaded avgas is coming sooner than we might think.
Don't hold your breath, they've been saying that for years. https://www.avweb.com/insider/going-to- ... -to-100ul/
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hpmicrowave
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Re: Question about gas

Post by hpmicrowave »

California just outlawing 100LL is much different than it stopping world wide production. If CA did outlaw it I’m sure the Biden Administration would say nothing.

Just have to fly to Nevada to gas up.

Cecil
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Re: Question about gas

Post by Skepilot »

Well, GAMI got FAA approval for a 100-octane unleaded fuel. At this point it's only approved as an STC on a per airframe and powerplant basis. This doesn't get us anywhere near where we need to be, but it's a step in the right direction.

https://www.avfuel.com/Fuel/Alternative ... aded-Avgas

https://www.avweb.com/insider/gami-cros ... nish-line/

https://youtu.be/BE1ussvpS2U
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ibgarrett
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Re: Question about gas

Post by ibgarrett »

I'm assuming the Rotax can handle the 100 unleaded?
Brian Garrett
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